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Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 28 Jun 2009, 23:29
by Tavo
Свастика - вид креста.
Крест понятие широкое:)

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 15 Aug 2009, 07:31
by Grish Begian
The best symbol will be the Mt. Ararat and the ark picture ...that will identify the Genesis, where all Hamshen and Armenians have common ancestors, and they can call themselves "children of Noah".......
Thanks!!

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 15 Aug 2009, 08:35
by avetik
Grish jan, this would be a great symbol for all Armenian nation, not just its part the Hamshen.
In this topic we are looking for something very specific to Hamshen sub-ethnic group.

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 15 Aug 2009, 23:40
by Grish Begian
avetik wrote:Grish jan, this would be a great symbol for all Armenian nation, not just its part the Hamshen.
In this topic we are looking for something very specific to Hamshen sub-ethnic group.


Dear Avetic, why you called sub-ethnic group, I am new here, and I want to know more about Hamshen ...I have heard their
language in internet and I red the history...I am so surprise, how close it is to Armenian language ...according to history, Prince Hamam took his people and moved to today's Turkey.. if we find the picture of an Armenian prince of that time, that will be a perfect choice for Hamsheni people. :idea:

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 16 Aug 2009, 20:12
by avetik
Grish jan, Armenian sub-ethnic groups, such as Hamshentsi, are studied today by sociologists, historians, linguists. What makes Hamshentsi's somewhat different from other Armenian sub-ethnic groups is the fact that majority of us (according to Hagop about 5/8) are descendants of those people who were converted from Christianity to Islam. This process was not quick and it began about 3-4 centuries ago. Today a part of muslim Hamshetsi sub-ethnic group which is called Hopa Hemshinli still speaks a dialect of Armenian. They do not call themselves Armenians, but they do not call themselves Turk either, but they use "Hamshetsi" name. Their dialect is quite different from traditional modern day Armenian, but is similar to a dialect that Armenians in Abkhazia and South Russia are using. Hamshetsi Armenians in Abkhazia and South Russia are not Muslim, but they are Christian with clear national identity as Armenians. Hemshinli in Turkey struggle with identity issues even today. Yet not just the dialect, but music, food, many other cultural aspects of both Chrisian and Muslim Hamshetsi are unique to the Black Sea area. I would say, there is more similarity with Pontian Greeks than with Armenians from other areas, but this is my personal opinion.

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 18 Aug 2009, 22:24
by hagop
Friends,

As far as I know, no one had heard of Amatuni princes Hamam and Shapuh in recent centuries. Neither the Hemshinli (Muslim) nor the Hamshentsis (Christian) had any memory of them before there was an interest in ancient Armenian history books and their or translation into Western languages starting from 19th century. Only the place name Hamshen had remained but nothing else about the Amatuni family's connection with Hamshen. After the old histories became available, people discovered the Amatuni story. So, there is no way to know what these princes looked like. They didn't have coins minted in their name since they weren't kings. The existing manuscripts do not have their figures in them.

Most Hemshinli will say that they are Turks today even if some privately admit their ancestors were Armenians. Other Hemshinli will say they are neither Turks or Armenians, but when the situation is serious, they will says they are Turks. We have to understand that sometimes what they are saying isn't as important as when, where and how they are saying things. All the people living in Turkey are masters of survival. At the same time, the Hemshinli are highly assimilated in Turkey and nothing much separates them from the Turks and other groups there.

I don't find the Hamshen dialects (Hopa or Christian ones) to be very different than the standard Western Armenian. By definition, the dialects are supposed to be different than the "standard", whatever that standard is, sometimes more, sometimes less. There are other Armenian dialects that are difficult to understand for the Standard Western or Eastern Armenian speakers. The Hamshen dialects aren't weird dialects or some abnormal occurrence. For example, the dialect of Khtorjur near Hamshen (Hodecur to the Hemsinli) was very similar to that of the Hamshen group. I am sure there were other similar dialects like that I don't know about. Also, we are comparing apples and oranges here (a standard 21st century language that has been developing for a long time to a dialect that lost its connection to Armenian three centuries ago).

Just like the language, the music and other cultural elements changed with the Hemshinli over the centuries. The tempo of kochari changed to Black sea tempo; xius, xavits and abur remained but many other Black Sea fish, maize and cabbage dishes enter into their diet. But there isn't a complete replacement of the old with the new. I would say the changes are environment-based or need-based.

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 16 Nov 2009, 11:06
by HeMSiNLi_Asi
Image

Hamshen people are known with Tulum (Bagpipe). I think it's identify with us. Really importat for us and indispensable.

Re: Symbol of Hamshen

PostPosted: 17 Nov 2009, 07:06
by avetik
HeMSiNLi_Asi, I think this is a very good symbol. Unfortunately, in late decades we don't see this instrument very much on "our side" of the Black Sea, but I feel this is a very important symbol. It has a very interesting, "cosmic" sound. Although its tone and its tunes are not as easy for a western ear to adjust to, it is a very old instrument, definitely indigenous to the area of Black Sea coast. So I agree with you.

And although my pen pals from Hopa assured me that kemenche is not their favorite instrument, I believe both tulum and kemenche are such unique symbols of Hamshen.


Image

If I knew how to paint, I would draw Zil Kale, funduk nut, tulum and kemenche in one symbol. But I am not an artist, unfortunately :)