BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby hagop » 27 Jul 2008, 08:59

Himi-inch-enik,

There are no theories (plural) on the ancestry of the Hemshinli. On one hand, there is A THEORY (and a very poor theory) that the Hemshinli are Central Asian Turks and on the other hand there is the truth as evidenced by genetic data, historic data, family names, oral histories from the Hemshinli and their Laz, Pontic and Georgian neighbors. Accept whichever you want, or come up with a new one,it is your choice. Don't expect people who can think would be confused about which one is which.

There are tens of national groups living in Turkey that have different languages, genetic ancestry and customs, they all claim that they came from Central Asia. This alone should have given you a clue but if someone wants to believe in anything for some reason, truth doesn't matter much.

If someone told us that for him genes don't matter at all and religious brotherhood is what's important, at least that wouldn't be lying to himself. He knows what he is. He may like it, hate it or be neutral about it but he wants something else. That would be his choice. None of have a choice when matters come to the laws of the nature.
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby himi_inch_enik » 28 Jul 2008, 02:41

hagop wrote:Himi-inch-enik,

If someone told us that for him genes don't matter at all and religious brotherhood is what's important, at least that wouldn't be lying to himself. He knows what he is. He may like it, hate it or be neutral about it but he wants something else. That would be his choice. None of have a choice when matters come to the laws of the nature.


hi
first of all i would like to say yes i am not and wont be one of the ppl that u discribed "lying to themselves"...
i ve got my genes my culture my religion and everything that makes me "me" and its me when all these come together; i cant pick up one of them and say that "thats me" leaving the others out and vice versa and that wont change in the future.
secondly i didnt say "genes dont matter AT ALL".
and i used the word theory bcoz they r nothing more than theories 2 me as i personally didnt do much search about it:going into every detail like neither i have read anything (books researches ect) from armanian history nor read in turkish history (the ones that i came across (articles or books) they sounded like theoris to me:) i dont think we r turkish and only picked the language up bcoz we were neigbours to armanians.and i dont think that we r armenian and had to change the religion but it was ok to keep to language.
(well again these r my words and i do know that i dont use appropriate terminology
but i hope i could have told what i wanted to (what a sentence:) yani umarim anlatabilmisimdir
many thanks
note: i dont mean to be rude i dont use capitals all times (armenians turkish ect)
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby avetik » 28 Jul 2008, 05:55

Dear Himi_inch_enink,

Thanks for expressing your views. Be yourself. If you are Muslim, then so be it, nobody asks you to deny it. You sound very defensive as if we (Armenians, not "armanians" as you like to spell it) are trying to challenge your religious views. Not at all. But the reason why you are in this board, obviously, is because you got interested in this subject. Right? What lead you here, rather than Turkish-government lead discussion boards? Perhaps it was the alternative viewpoint. So you know what we think about history of Hemshinli people, you are very familiar with our views. These views are based on facts, on scientific research, references to which you can find here if you search this forum. We do not have any specific agenda, our goal is just to make sure people "on both sides of the Blak Sea", so to speak, would know more about each other. If Hemshinli people would find it interesting to learn about their roots, that would just enreach their understanding. Of course, if one choses to deny some view for no particular reason, thats his/her choice, no amount of words can ever change his mind. On the other hand, the study material is aboundant. We just need to learn to open our minds and use our best judgement on what to believe. I think you are on a right path, and may God in whom you have faith show you what is the truth.

Best.
Avetik

astegh badmutine hin
xarnevadza nerin hed,
kidista miy baberun azbarininq himi menq,
azbarininq menq... (c) Hamsheni Azbar
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby hagop » 28 Jul 2008, 06:20

Himi-inch-enik,

I am not offended by your using lower case letters for proper nouns. Also, you are using perfect terminology -- I don't think anyone is misunderstanding you.

Please understand I don't want to come off as lecturing other people. That's not my intention. I believe firmly in the very obvious fact that you, me and the great majority of humans understand each others' thought because we have similar mental abilities. So, if a group of average intelligence people can understand something, so can most of the humans.

In this instance, we are talking about something that is very straight forward. Many (if not most) members of all ethnic groups in Turkey claim to have come from Central Asia. The Hemshinli are no exception to this reality. All of these claims are false with the obvious exception of those Turks who have significant gene contribution from Central Asian ancestors.

Now about your first point. You are correct in your observation that your ancestors could not have picked up the language from Armenians. Yes, they have always spoken it as a mother tongue and did not speak Turkish well up to recent times. Especially the women spoke very little or no Turkish a century ago. Since the women are the carriers of the language, the long tailed lie that some propagandists tell they learned to speak Armenian from Armenians falls flat on its face. This much we are in agreement. But I am puzzled by your second statement where you say the Hemshinli couldn't have been Armenians because you don't think it was ok in the Ottoman Empire to lose the religion but not the language.

Well, if what you say is true, then why do we have the Georgians, Laz, Pontic Greeks, Circassians, Bosnians, Pomaks, Cretans (Giritliler), Albanians, etc. speaking their languages to this day which is many hundred years after their conversion to Islam? Now the question to ask here is was the Ottoman Empire a Turkifying empire or an Islamicising empire? Of course it was the second until the latter years of Ittihat & Terakki rule.

So, from your words, we reach to a even stranger conclusion which makes me more puzzled. If, as you are claiming, the Hemshinli are neither Armenians and Turks, who are they? Ottoman records, Armenian church records, European travelers, the neighbors of the Hemshinli all say the Hemshinli were Armenians. There is no record of a different people anywhere. Even some Hemshinli people admit that they were Armenians. Now, why would all these people lie? Isn't there a single honest man among these peoples to say the truth? What about the culture, customs, family names? Were they manufactured as a part of this conspiracy? Why do the average Hemshinli looks like an Armenian? Is that manufactured too?

You see, you don't have to be an expert to ask all these questions.
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby himi_inch_enik » 28 Jul 2008, 16:23

avetik

i want to make it clear that i wasnt trying to be defensive when i mentioned i was muslim as there is no need 2 be coz no body (u armenians) (it was only a mistake by the way i didnt spell armenians as armanians on purpose) has anything to do with any bodies religious views on this forum neither have i).
i mentioned it bcoz i know there r chiristian hamshetszis as well. i was talking about my life as kevork asked the question about hamshetszi life in turkey.
i came to this forum to meet hamshetszis from different places so that we cud share experiences, ideas, culture (similarities differnces) ect.and ofcourse find this interesting!!!

i think that when u close your eyes and say there is no sun it doesnt mean that there isnt, its only u u dont see it as u prefer to close your eyes.believe me my eyes r open and i wont close them and deny the presence of it when i see it.

regards
atiye
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby himi_inch_enik » 28 Jul 2008, 16:49

hagop

well i didnt claim that u were here for lecturing me or my writing style
i only thought it wud be nice to say anyway, i dont know why u took it that way.

my second point is only my point again!!!
right!
ottoman empire managed to convert us to islam but not some other religious minorities like aleviesand many different.
also there r still armenians in turkey who didnt lose the language or the religion why we had to lose the religion but they didnt.
one thing i know about armenians is that they r religious (maybe were more in the past)
we cud have practised the faith secretly if ottoman empire forced us to change it as being religious christians.

u can say that i call this theory and its maybe mine only it will be a theory till i find the supporting elements when i reach to that stage it will become a FACT.

i do know i dont have to be an expert for all these so thats why i can call it theory and keep asking questions about it till I come to an end (it is like bringing all the pieces together, as u said yes we all r puzzled...

regards
atiye
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby Hay » 28 Jul 2008, 22:41

himi_inch_enik wrote:hagop

well i didnt claim that u were here for lecturing me or my writing style
i only thought it wud be nice to say anyway, i dont know why u took it that way.

my second point is only my point again!!!
right!
ottoman empire managed to convert us to islam but not some other religious minorities like aleviesand many different.
also there r still armenians in turkey who didnt lose the language or the religion why we had to lose the religion but they didnt.
one thing i know about armenians is that they r religious (maybe were more in the past)
we cud have practised the faith secretly if ottoman empire forced us to change it as being religious christians.

u can say that i call this theory and its maybe mine only it will be a theory till i find the supporting elements when i reach to that stage it will become a FACT.

i do know i dont have to be an expert for all these so thats why i can call it theory and keep asking questions about it till I come to an end (it is like bringing all the pieces together, as u said yes we all r puzzled...

regards
atiye



Hello dear Atiye,
in your post which I have quoted, there was a line where you said "we would have practiced the faith secretly if ottoman empire forced us to change it as being religious christians".
So the point you try to make is that if the Hamshetzis had been FORCED to convert, they would have tried to preserve their religion at least in secret.

But what you probably don't know is that your ancestors did exactly that: they tried to preserve their religion in secret, but with generation it got lost.
I will present you with historical sources to prove it, I think you can understand Turkish. (A friend had shared these informations with me previously)

"1810'li yillarda Hemsin'i, Karadere'yi, Coruh'u gezen M. Bijiskyan boyle yaziyor:"Hemsinliler yari-islam yari-hristiyan olup pek cogu donmustur, ama hristiyanlik aliskanliklarini korurlar, kiliseye yardim ve ianeyi eksik etmez, Vardavar (Vartovar bayrami) ve Verapokhman bayramda atalarinin canin icin adak adayip kilisede mum yakar, kurban keserler". Devam ederek "bazi yaslilarin hristiyan adetlerini bilip, haca saygi duyduklarini ve gizlice kiliseye yardim ettiklerini" yaziyor."

{{{{{English translation:
M Bijiksyan, who had visited Hemsin, Karadere, Coruh in the 1810's writes:
"The Hamshentsis, being half-Christian, Half-Muslim , have been mostly converted to Islam, but they protest their Christian traditions, they aid the Chruch, they constantly give donations, in Vardavar and Verapokhman feasts they make an offering for the souls of their grandfathers and light candles in Church." And then he continues by saying :"Many elderly Hamshentsis know Christian traditions well, show respect to the Cross and help the Church in secret"

Baska bir kaynaktan:
""1840'li yillarda islami kabul eden birkac ailenin hristiyanliga geri donmesi, bu tur olaylari onlemek icin mollalari harekete gecirdi. Onlar halki etkilemek uzere "muslumanlar icin 7 Ermenice sozcuk 1 kufre esittir" diye fetva verdiler. Fakat Turkce bilmeyen kadinlar birkac koyden mollalari sopalarla kovdular, buna karsin erkekler, katliam korkusuyla toplandilar ve her Ermenice konusanin agaya bes koyun ceza vermesine karar verdiler. Tum bu yasaklama ve cezalar Hamsenlilerin aile ici dilini degistirmeye yetmedi ve onlar bugune dek lehcelerini korumayi surduruyorlar.""

{{{{{English translation:
The return of some Hamshetsi families to Christianity in the 1840's made the Mollas pass to action in order to prevent such things from continuing. In order to influence the people, they have a religious decree that "7 Armenian words were equal to a curse". But Hamshentsi women who didn't know Turkish threw out the Mollas with sticks. In spite of this, the men feared a massacre and they decided that every Armenian speaker will have to give 5 sheep to the Lord. But all of these decisions and punishments couldn't change the language used among Hamshentsis and to this day they continue to preserve their dialect}}}}}

Atiye, maybe you know that there were Armenians who converted to Islam in 1915 in order to be saved from the massacred and deportations, and most of them retained their Christian traditions in secret, but today, after 93 years later, very few of their descendants are aware of the Christian religion of their ancestors.

Maybe what my friend said is true:"ister Karadeniz'de ister Anadolu'da Ermeniler ayni sekilde Islamlastirilmis. Muslumanligi kabul etmek zorunda kalmis, kabul etmekten sonra gizlice bazi Hristiyan ogeleri korumus, ama isin gizli olmasinin yuzden gelen nesillere gecmemis, ve gittikce unutulup silinmis."

Best Regards
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby avetik » 29 Jul 2008, 02:01

Maybe what my friend said is true:"ister Karadeniz'de ister Anadolu'da Ermeniler ayni sekilde Islamlastirilmis. Muslumanligi kabul etmek zorunda kalmis, kabul etmekten sonra gizlice bazi Hristiyan ogeleri korumus, ama isin gizli olmasinin yuzden gelen nesillere gecmemis, ve gittikce unutulup silinmis."


Dear Hay, can I ask you to translate this for us as well please?..

Thanks.

astegh badmutine hin
xarnevadza nerin hed,
kidista miy baberun azbarininq himi menq,
azbarininq menq... (c) Hamsheni Azbar
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby artem » 29 Jul 2008, 09:00

Hello all,

Hay wrote:M Bijiksyan, who had visited Hemsin, Karadere, Coruh in the 1810's writes:
"The Hamshentsis, being half-Christian, Half-Muslim , have been mostly converted to Islam, but they protest their Christian traditions, they aid the Chruch, they constantly give donations, in Vardavar and Verapokhman feasts they make an offering for the souls of their grandfathers and light candles in Church." And then he continues by saying :"Many elderly Hamshentsis know Christian traditions well, show respect to the Cross and help the Church in secret"

I think the big problem for this "Crypto-Christians" was marriages inside their community. "Crypto-Armenian" woman have to find "Crypto-Armenian" man and vice versa. But that is a big problem because this people have to hide their religion identity.

Hay wrote:The return of some Hamshetsi families to Christianity in the 1840's made the Mollas pass to action in order to prevent such things from continuing. In order to influence the people, they have a religious decree that "7 Armenian words were equal to a curse". But Hamshentsi women who didn't know Turkish threw out the Mollas with sticks. In spite of this, the men feared a massacre and they decided that every Armenian speaker will have to give 5 sheep to the Lord. But all of these decisions and punishments couldn't change the language used among Hamshentsis and to this day they continue to preserve their dialect

Many Armenians in Diaspora use Armenian Church also as Armenian cultural centers. Thay can to communicate with other Armenians there and to practic their Armenian dialect. I think some Hamsheni Armenians in Turkey preserved their dialect and some of Armenian traditions just because they lived compactly and practiced marriages inside their community. But this is an interesting fact of course.

Best regards, Artem
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby Hay » 29 Jul 2008, 10:36

avetik wrote:
Maybe what my friend said is true:"ister Karadeniz'de ister Anadolu'da Ermeniler ayni sekilde Islamlastirilmis. Muslumanligi kabul etmek zorunda kalmis, kabul etmekten sonra gizlice bazi Hristiyan ogeleri korumus, ama isin gizli olmasinin yuzden gelen nesillere gecmemis, ve gittikce unutulup silinmis."


Dear Hay, can I ask you to translate this for us as well please?..

Thanks.



He said: "Whether in the Black Sea (Karadeniz in Turkish) or in Anatolia (Anadolu in Turkish), Armenians were Islamified the same way. They were forced to accept Islam, and after having accepted it they continued to secretly preserve some Christian elements, but because it was being conducted in secret it could not pass on to coming generations for a long time, and so with time it was dropped and forgotten."
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby hagop » 29 Jul 2008, 20:53

Thank you, Atiye, for the discussion. Keep asking questions.

Regards.
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby İLLETYUS » 02 Aug 2008, 15:40

nanal wrote:valla tubısh ben yaylamızda ermenı kılısesının enkazlartına adlarımızı kazıdıgımızı bılıyorum ve yıkılmıs kalıntıları kalmıs cok var ozellıkle hopaya gıdersen koylerın tepelerınde var


Merhabalar
Bahsettiğin harabelerin yerlerini söyleyebilir misin? Ya da elinde varsa resimlerini gönderebilir misin?
Nedense Tubish'in sorusu kimsenin ilgisini çekmedi.....Çok önemli aslında.
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby İLLETYUS » 02 Aug 2008, 15:41

Kevork wrote:Hello! This topic is very interesting for me. Particularly, I am interested to see what fellow Hamshenis write about this and about what they feel. I am an Armenian from Armenia, so I do not speak Turkish but I can understand some of it...

Could you please also write in English, or maybe in Hamsheni, so that I can try to understand what this is all about too?


Is this Turkish forum?
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby İLLETYUS » 02 Aug 2008, 15:44

Hay wrote:
himi_inch_enik wrote:
Kevork wrote:Hello! This topic is very interesting for me. Particularly, I am interested to see what fellow Hamshenis write about this and about what they feel. I am an Armenian from Armenia, so I do not speak Turkish but I can understand some of it...

Could you please also write in English, or maybe in Hamsheni, so that I can try to understand what this is all about too?


hii
i am a Muslim hamshetszi from Turkiye. for me iam muslim firts and then hamshetszi. if u ask i cant tell iam Armanian bcoz i dont know how to be as i grow up in Turkish_islamic but also Hamshetszi culture. There are completaly different theories:) about us as ppl do say we r Armanians and orhers say that we r Turkish but i say I AM HAMSHETSI:)
my nick name was Ermeni meaning Armanian when i was at school i did take it offensive at some stage but this idea then changed. I might be Armenian (i do know i am not 100% Turkish :P ) but i know (and i feel )i am 100% hamshetszi.even if iam not biologically Turkish i do love Turkish culture and my country. its really good to have all these differences they r what makes u special so i am hamshetszi and special:P:):)



I'm not Hamshetsi, I'm an Armenian from Lebanon, but I went through the same thing in school. The Arabs called me "Ermeni" which means "Armenian" in Arabic. At first, it used to bother me that they used ethnic terms to refer to me, but eventually of course I didn't find it offensive because I knew it was part of my identity.

Why did they call you Ermeni? Did you openly admit that Hamshentsis are historically Armenian?


Hmmm, Laz people call us "Armeni" or "Kalın Kaburgalı Armeni". By the way I'm from Pazar-Hemshin.We don't speak Armenian.
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Re: BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

Postby avetik » 02 Aug 2008, 18:11

Kalın Kaburgalı -- what does that mean, can you please translate?..
The fact that you don't speak Armenian is obvious, but do the "other" Turks make any distinction between themselves and these "Kalın Kaburgalı Armeni"?
Interesting!..

astegh badmutine hin
xarnevadza nerin hed,
kidista miy baberun azbarininq himi menq,
azbarininq menq... (c) Hamsheni Azbar
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