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Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 25 Jun 2008, 23:52
by LaLa
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Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 26 Jun 2008, 06:14
by avetik
I cannot speak for Muslim Hamshetsi's. Historically villages of islamized Armenians and those who remained Christian were not far from each other, but from reading Barunak Torlakyan's description of these villages, I have a feeling that there was a clear separation. In the eyes of neighbours (laz, turks) they all were Armenians, however. Sergey Vardanyan in one of his articles brings an example of a Hemshinli man, whose family was killed together with other Armenian even though they were Muslim!.. I doubt that loyalty of all Muslim Hamshetsi to Turkey is 100% genuine, but it is politically correct for them to identify themselves as loyal citizen. It is safer that way.

Now, to answer your question, Armenians kill each other as much as any other nation. During Abkhazian-Georgian war recently, Armenians fought for both Georgian side as well (and mostly) as for Abkhazian. But I would be far from considering anything like that as a civil war.

Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 26 Jun 2008, 08:44
by hagop
Saying that there is an identity crisis among the Hemshinli because some of them know (or found out recently in the case of younger generations) that they originated from Armenians isn't really true.

The Hemsinli aren't an isolated group. There are about 50 groups of people in Turkey who are not real Turks. Basically, they all are in the same boat. Yes, there is sometimes amazement, surprise, denial, sometimes cursing their bad luck (because they weren't born Turks) as well as excitement, curiosity and lots of questions, even happiness when some of them investigate or find out about their roots but there are no signs of an identity crisis in any of these groups. This fact has a lot to do with the necessity to be a realist in an excessively oppressive environment. Realism also lies at the root of the conversion of these groups and realism was the path they took when it was necessary.

Going back to Hemshinli, in 1915 they assumed a very low profile when Armenians were being annihilated. This was the best course of action for their security and they made the realistic choice. If there was to be an identity crisis, wouldn't 1915 be a good time to have one? Some of the Hemshinli speak Armenian and some of the other groups speak their own languages. Again, this doesn' t cause an identity crisis -- history of Turkey has shown that realism beats all other concerns.

Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 26 Jun 2008, 09:14
by LaLa
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Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 26 Jun 2008, 14:27
by avetik
LaLa, I have a feeling, that this conversation is headed to a wrong direction. Let me remind you and everybody, that political discussions are generally not encouraged here, we would like to limit such as much as possible. There are tons of other places to discuss politics. Here we try to talk mostly about culture and history of Hamshen. Thanks for your understanding.

Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 26 Jun 2008, 19:43
by LaLa
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Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2008, 09:15
by hagop
Lala,

You just said Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, etc. are in the same same boat! That's what I said too. People conform and try to assume a low profile when they face great danger. You or I may not like the result but it is what it is. Claiming that most people in general would act heroically in such situations or thinking that they go through identity crises cannot be supported by any evidence. Tens of thousands of Armenians converted to Islam in 1896 massacres and they converted back when the danger passed. In 1915 most Armenians who hoped to do the same were outwitted by the state as most converts were killed anyway. The descendants of the converted Armenians you see actually descend from a smaller number of Armenians who were spared. Getting indignant about historical facts cannot change them according to one's ideals.

The person you gave as an example, Zadik, who found his roots had parents and grandparents who had seen much worse but did not have an identity crisis. Again, they did whatever necessary to save their families in a life and death situation. I will leave it at that.

My personal opinion is that the topic shouldn't stray too much from Hamshen. I do think there should be detailed discussion about the treatment of Armenians and other minorities in Turkey but not in a forum that serves a narrow subject like the history and culture of Hamshen. Avetik, others and myself have said it here before. This has nothing to do with hiding the facts or not being open. In fact, I resent the fact that hat you are insinuating that people here are saying Armenians aren't called infidels (gavur) in Turkey or there is no pressure from the state, just because you think we do. I don't wish to comment on this non-issue anymore.

Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 27 Jun 2008, 10:37
by LaLa
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Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 28 Jun 2008, 09:11
by hagop
You don't care about the destruction of the Armenians. If you did, you wouldn't address Armenians in a disrespectful manner and recklessly attack them to prove that you are the only one who cares and knows. You have shown to us not only you lack a basic understanding of history but also lack common sense.

This forum is a place for mutual learning and not one for confrontation or forceful behavior. The members of this forum agree that no one has all the answers. If you think you know all the answers, don't ask any more questions here -- you have no place in this forum. If you really think this forum exists in order to hide the destruction of the Armenians, what are you doing in this "rotten" forum?

Now is the time for you to change your childish behavior or face expulsion.

Re: Hidden Armenians in Turkey

PostPosted: 29 Jun 2008, 22:03
by hagop
I am sorry I was too harsh to Lala. She was trying to make a point. I apologize.