BİZ KİMİZ-WHO WE ARE

[hagop]

Himi-inch-enik,

There are no theories (plural) on the ancestry of the Hemshinli. On one hand, there is A THEORY (and a very poor theory) that the Hemshinli are Central Asian Turks and on the other hand there is the truth as evidenced by genetic data, historic data, family names, oral histories from the Hemshinli and their Laz, Pontic and Georgian neighbors. Accept whichever you want, or come up with a new one,it is your choice. Don't expect people who can think would be confused about which one is which.

There are tens of national groups living in Turkey that have different languages, genetic ancestry and customs, they all claim that they came from Central Asia. This alone should have given you a clue but if someone wants to believe in anything for some reason, truth doesn't matter much.

If someone told us that for him genes don't matter at all and religious brotherhood is what's important, at least that wouldn't be lying to himself. He knows what he is. He may like it, hate it or be neutral about it but he wants something else. That would be his choice. None of have a choice when matters come to the laws of the nature.

[himi_inch_enik]

[avetik]

Dear Himi_inch_enink,

Thanks for expressing your views. Be yourself. If you are Muslim, then so be it, nobody asks you to deny it. You sound very defensive as if we (Armenians, not "armanians" as you like to spell it) are trying to challenge your religious views. Not at all. But the reason why you are in this board, obviously, is because you got interested in this subject. Right? What lead you here, rather than Turkish-government lead discussion boards? Perhaps it was the alternative viewpoint. So you know what we think about history of Hemshinli people, you are very familiar with our views. These views are based on facts, on scientific research, references to which you can find here if you search this forum. We do not have any specific agenda, our goal is just to make sure people "on both sides of the Blak Sea", so to speak, would know more about each other. If Hemshinli people would find it interesting to learn about their roots, that would just enreach their understanding. Of course, if one choses to deny some view for no particular reason, thats his/her choice, no amount of words can ever change his mind. On the other hand, the study material is aboundant. We just need to learn to open our minds and use our best judgement on what to believe. I think you are on a right path, and may God in whom you have faith show you what is the truth.

Best.
Avetik

[hagop]

Himi-inch-enik,

I am not offended by your using lower case letters for proper nouns. Also, you are using perfect terminology -- I don't think anyone is misunderstanding you.

Please understand I don't want to come off as lecturing other people. That's not my intention. I believe firmly in the very obvious fact that you, me and the great majority of humans understand each others' thought because we have similar mental abilities. So, if a group of average intelligence people can understand something, so can most of the humans.

In this instance, we are talking about something that is very straight forward. Many (if not most) members of all ethnic groups in Turkey claim to have come from Central Asia. The Hemshinli are no exception to this reality. All of these claims are false with the obvious exception of those Turks who have significant gene contribution from Central Asian ancestors.

Now about your first point. You are correct in your observation that your ancestors could not have picked up the language from Armenians. Yes, they have always spoken it as a mother tongue and did not speak Turkish well up to recent times. Especially the women spoke very little or no Turkish a century ago. Since the women are the carriers of the language, the long tailed lie that some propagandists tell they learned to speak Armenian from Armenians falls flat on its face. This much we are in agreement. But I am puzzled by your second statement where you say the Hemshinli couldn't have been Armenians because you don't think it was ok in the Ottoman Empire to lose the religion but not the language.

Well, if what you say is true, then why do we have the Georgians, Laz, Pontic Greeks, Circassians, Bosnians, Pomaks, Cretans (Giritliler), Albanians, etc. speaking their languages to this day which is many hundred years after their conversion to Islam? Now the question to ask here is was the Ottoman Empire a Turkifying empire or an Islamicising empire? Of course it was the second until the latter years of Ittihat & Terakki rule.

So, from your words, we reach to a even stranger conclusion which makes me more puzzled. If, as you are claiming, the Hemshinli are neither Armenians and Turks, who are they? Ottoman records, Armenian church records, European travelers, the neighbors of the Hemshinli all say the Hemshinli were Armenians. There is no record of a different people anywhere. Even some Hemshinli people admit that they were Armenians. Now, why would all these people lie? Isn't there a single honest man among these peoples to say the truth? What about the culture, customs, family names? Were they manufactured as a part of this conspiracy? Why do the average Hemshinli looks like an Armenian? Is that manufactured too?

You see, you don't have to be an expert to ask all these questions.

[himi_inch_enik]

avetik

i want to make it clear that i wasnt trying to be defensive when i mentioned i was muslim as there is no need 2 be coz no body (u armenians) (it was only a mistake by the way i didnt spell armenians as armanians on purpose) has anything to do with any bodies religious views on this forum neither have i).
i mentioned it bcoz i know there r chiristian hamshetszis as well. i was talking about my life as kevork asked the question about hamshetszi life in turkey.
i came to this forum to meet hamshetszis from different places so that we cud share experiences, ideas, culture (similarities differnces) ect.and ofcourse find this interesting!!!

i think that when u close your eyes and say there is no sun it doesnt mean that there isnt, its only u u dont see it as u prefer to close your eyes.believe me my eyes r open and i wont close them and deny the presence of it when i see it.

regards
atiye

[himi_inch_enik]

hagop

well i didnt claim that u were here for lecturing me or my writing style
i only thought it wud be nice to say anyway, i dont know why u took it that way.

my second point is only my point again!!!
right!
ottoman empire managed to convert us to islam but not some other religious minorities like aleviesand many different.
also there r still armenians in turkey who didnt lose the language or the religion why we had to lose the religion but they didnt.
one thing i know about armenians is that they r religious (maybe were more in the past)
we cud have practised the faith secretly if ottoman empire forced us to change it as being religious christians.

u can say that i call this theory and its maybe mine only it will be a theory till i find the supporting elements when i reach to that stage it will become a FACT.

i do know i dont have to be an expert for all these so thats why i can call it theory and keep asking questions about it till I come to an end (it is like bringing all the pieces together, as u said yes we all r puzzled...

regards
atiye

[Hay]

[avetik]

[artem]

[Hay]

[hagop]

Thank you, Atiye, for the discussion. Keep asking questions.

Regards.

[İLLETYUS]

[İLLETYUS]

[İLLETYUS]

[avetik]

Kalın Kaburgalı -- what does that mean, can you please translate?..
The fact that you don't speak Armenian is obvious, but do the "other" Turks make any distinction between themselves and these "Kalın Kaburgalı Armeni"?
Interesting!..